Jacqui Salmon: Hello Jon and Michael and welcome to "Families...and
so on." You have an amazing story. What prompted you both to decide to
write a book about your experience? Did you decide after New Jersey decided
to lift its ban on joint adoptions by unmarried couples or earlier in the
process?
Jon and Michael Galluccio: It was after -- when we received the
media attention from winning. People from all over the world were writing
to us and sharing with us. We started simply with a newsletter, and people
said 'hey this really should be a book.'
Jacqui Salmon: Tell us about your decision to fight the state in
order to jointly adopt Adam. By doing that, did you risk losing Adam
completely? You were Adam's foster parents at that point, but the state
could have easily yanked him from your home.
Jon and Michael Galluccio: There was always that option. However,
once we went public and filed our case, the public outcry against the state
of New Jersey for not allowing our joint adoption was so great and so
favorable that we stopped thinking that the state would be able to take Adam
away.
Jacqui Salmon: To get all of you caught up on this case, in their
book, the Galluccios write that they decided to refuse New Jersey's offer
that Michael (the breadwinner in the family) should adopt the sick infant
they had been caring for. They opted to challenge the state in court for
the ability to jointly adopt Adam together. To make a long story short,
they won and, in fact, New Jersey became one of the first states in the
country to permit unmarried couples to adopt children. Along with Adam, the
couple now has a daughter Madison, whom they adopted as an infant, and a
daughter Rosa, Madison's half-sister who joined the family a bit later.
Jacqui Salmon: How are your children doing? Your son Adam is about
6 years old now, right? And Madison, your daughter, is how old?
Jon and Michael Galluccio: Adam will be 6 in September and still
somehwat frozen as a two-year-old in the mind of the public! He is doing
wonderfully. He is slightly learning disabled, but we're addressing that.
Other than that, he's phenomenally healthy. Madison is great. She's had no
lingering effects of the drugs from her mother. She'll be five in December.
And our daughter Rosa is now 18 (we finalized her adoption when she was 17
and 8 months pregnant). Now we have an eight-month-old grandaughter,
Maryanna, in our house.
Jacqui Salmon: Wow, you've got a houseful.
Jon and Michael Galluccio: It's great. It's also semi-insane, but
just like most American families.
Jacqui Salmon: How did you decide who was going to be the at-home
parent? Jon has been doing it from the beginning. In your book, you talk
about your decision that you wanted a parent at home when you took children
into your house.
Jon and Michael Galluccio: Jon: I'm the actor, which meant I wasn't
brining home a lot of bacon! It just made sense financially. Michael was
jealous at first, but if you ask him now, he got the better deal. Being an
at-home parent is the hardest job in the world.
Jacqui Salmon: Are you also caring for your granddaughter?
Jon and Michael Galluccio: No, Jon doesn't. Our granddaughter goes
to the day-care center where Rosa works. She graduated from high school in
June.
Jacqui Salmon: Sounds like you ended up facing a situation that
many
parents of teenagers have had to come to grips with -- dealing with a
pregnant teen.
Jon and Michael Galluccio: Our first reaction was "what is everyone
going to say?" It's sort of like coming out when you're gay! But after
going through everything and meeting with family therapists and so on, we
decided that unconditional love is unconditional love and that we would
support her because she wanted this baby. However, SHE was going to have
the baby, not us. We didn't want to raise another baby ourselves. Rosa,
however, has risen wonderfully to the occasion. As far as teenage mothers
go, she's tops.
Jacqui Salmon: So are you both still vegetarians? In the book you
tell the story of becoming vegetarians because that diet was the healthiest
for Adam -- even though you were both enthusiastic meat eaters. How's it
going?
Jon and Michael Galluccio: Well, Jon tends to, when Adam's not in
sight -- have a cheeseburger or two. Michael is much more strict with the
vegetarian regime. If we're out and the only choice is meat, Jon doesn't go
out of his way. Michael does, however, go out of his way to get a
vegetarian meal.
MH in Md.: Do you feel that adoptions should be allowed/encouraged
by unmarried heterosexual couples, since that position might increase public
sympathy towards adoptions by gay couples, or do you feel that it's
superfluous, since heterosexual couples have no barriers to getting married
and being considered? I know it shouldn't be a political football, but
unfortunately it can be. Bravo on your perserverance and courage to beat a
path. Whether you meant to or not, you've made it easier for others.
Jon and Michael Galluccio: We believe a marriage license helps the
stability of a family. But it doesn't undermine the ability of a couple to
be loving, caring parents just because they're not married. In New Jersey,
the new policy permitting unmarried couples to adopt applies to heterosexual
couples as well as gay couples. But in our case, of course, we couldn't get
married because we were gay.
Jacqui Salmon: Where does the issue of joint adoption by unmarried
couples stand elsewhere in the country? I believe there is a court case in
Florida challenging that state's ban on such joint adoptions that may end up
in federal court.
Jon and Michael Galluccio: Florida bans gays and lesbians from
adopting and, yes, it's being challenged in court. There are actually only
three other states that, like New Jersey, have a policy allowing a joint
adoption by gay couples. Those states are Connecticut, New Hampshire and
California. However, in some states, adoption law is done county-by-county
or even judge-by-judge. In some areas, then, gay adoptions are allowed, but
it's not state policy.
Centreville, Va.: How long were you two together before you decided
to adopt?
Jon and Michael Galluccio: We didn't discuss having children until
we were together for over 12 years. We've now been together for 19 and a
half years. But from the first discussion until now, we've managed three
children and a grandchild!
Warsaw, Poland: Honestly, I have trouble imagining why anyone would
object to this issue. A child who would not have a home otherwise is being
given a home by a set of people who love him/her. Does anything much really
matter? Seems to be a bit of a definitive non-issue.
Jon and Michael Galluccio: Thanks for your comments. By the way,
it's amazing how many people in Poland are a aware of our case. We see a
lot of papers in Poland that have written stories about us.
Washington, D.C.: What are your hopes for your children?
Considering homosexuality leaves you subject to discrimination
(homosexuality being somewhat controllable in comparison to race), do you
want them to be among the "norm" in regard to sexuality? Avoiding some
potential hardships?
Jon and Michael Galluccio: We want our children to be happy and
comfortable with whomever they are. Straight, gay, left-handed,whatever, we
want them to be filled with enough self-respect to hold their heads high and
be proud of who they are.
Georgia: I think it is really wonderful when people want children
--
and I think it is even doubly wonderful when the parents can take care of a
child better than their birth parents -- even if those parents are gay.
With that said -- I am still against gay adoptions. I think the
main
point that I can't get past is that these gay parents are showing their kids
that the other sex is not valuable in any way. The women are showing that
they don't need a man and the men are showing they don't need a woman. I
believe both would be confusing and destructive to the child. How do you
get around those issues in a gay adoption?
Jon and Michael Galluccio: Well, we don't live in a gay vaccuum!
We
live on a street with neighbors. And our parents are very much involved in
our family life, so our children certainly see the worth of women being
equal to that of men. They also see more heterosexual relationships than
homosexual relationships -- by far! We think our children understand better
than many people the value of love. When Madison plays, she's 'mommy.'
She's certainly not confused. We think our kids are fortunate. From the
beginning, they get to see the world without prejudice. And, hopefully,
they won't struggle with the internalized homophobia that most of us -- gay
or straight -- still suffer from in this country.
Washington, D.C.: Do you feel it was more difficult trying to
second
parent adopt when neither of you were the child's biological parent? Also,
do you know of any resources available to other gays and lesbians that could
inform them as to the adoption policy in states other than NJ?
Jon and Michael Galluccio: www.familypride.org. That's probably
the
most comprehensive resource out there now. As for your first question, I
think there are two separate issues here, and our issue of joint adoption of
Adam can't be compared to second-parenting a biological child.
Centreville, Va.: Do you think your children will be subjected to
any ridicule as a result of having gay parents? What have/will you do to
prepare them for any?
Jon and Michael Galluccio: Again, hopefully we'll raise them with
enough self respect to understand that the ridicule has nothing to do with
them. Kids are picked on for lots of reasons -- Jon was picked on for being
short, and Michael was picked on for being fat and Italian. At least our
kids will know what they're being picked up for, if they are, indeed, picked
on. Kids can be cruel, but it's their PARENTS who teach them that.
Plano, Texas: Haven't the studies that have been done shown that
gay
couples that adopt are actually far better parents than the average straight
couple? That may be partly because its so hard to become parents.
Jon and Michael Galluccio: If there are some studies that say that,
we really like them! A comprehensive English study, in fact, came to that
conclusion. And we think there's some merit to it. Gays have to work hard
to become parents. We have to think about how we're going to become
parents, and when and where and sometimes we have to take on the whole legal
system to do it.
Vienna, Va.: Jon and Michael, all of these questions on talk shows
about gay couples, gay marriages, and gay adoption may soon be a moot point
because a proposed Constitutionnal amendment is in the works (we're talking
Federal constitution here, not just a state one), that will recognize
marriage ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES as between ONE male and ONE female.
There is an enormous amount of support for this and it will probably pass
the required 38 states. If and when that happens, all state laws
recognizing and permitting non-traditional marriages and adoption will be
invalid. If you won your case in New Jersey, enjoy it while it lasts. I'm
not saying this as a gay-basher, bigot, or anything else...just being
realistic and objective.
Jon and Michael Galluccio: Well, many people in this country once
thought that Americans would never regain the right to drink again back in
the '20s when Prohibition was passed. In other words, we don't feel that
there are enough people in this country to support a Consitutional amendment
that would create a second class of citizenship. In fact, a few countries
have already given gay and lesbian couples marriage rights. Vermont now has
'civil unions' for gays and lesbians. And these policies haven't broken
down the family. They have just strengthened gay and lesbian families.
Washington, D.C.: Question for Jacqui -- My partner and I (two men)
have begun the process of adoption. We are going through public, not
private adoption. We have been told that we must be foster parents first
before the we will have the opportunity to adopt. That can be anywhere from
6 months to a few years, I suspect. Do you think this is just a ruse for DC
to shore up a shockingly low number of potential foster parents in the city?
Jon and Michael Galluccio: States are trying to do everything they
can to find more foster familes. We have 500,000 foster children in this
country. We are in a state of crisis in this country in that respect.
There aren't enough foster parents for the children who need them. We don't
think that states can really get away with the type of 'game-playing' you
describe.
Jacqui Salmon: In fact, I've interviewed gay couples in the
District
who have adopted children through public adoptions in that jurisdiction, so
I don't think it should be a problem. However, I can look up the info and
give you a fuller answer later, if you wish. Just send me an email via
salmonj@washpost.com
Bethesda, Md.: What do your children call you? And did the names
evolve, or did you two decide up front what they would be?
Jon and Michael Galluccio: We decided upfront that Jon would be
'daddy' and that Michael would be 'father.' 'Father' sounds kind of stuffy,
but in reality there is nothing sweeter once they've mastered the word. But
it certainly has evolved -- from "dadoo' to 'dadder' to 'fadder' to
'father.' And now they call Michael 'Fathie." We guess they're on an 'ie'
kick right now.
Washington, D.C.: What do you feel are some of the biggest
obstacles
facing same-sex couples for adopting children? What issues do you feel that
could be improved in order for gay/lesbian couples to adopt without much
trouble?
Jon and Michael Galluccio: We believe the biggest obstacles lie
within ourselves -- and how much of the homophobia that we've bought into.
We had to surmount those obstacles as well -- that having children wasn't
right, that gay couples shouldn't have children and all those other issues.
Everything that we've talked about today, we had to surmount before we were
ready to adopt.
The biggest improvement that would make it easier for gay/lesbians
to
adopt would be simply giving us the right to marry! It would force people
to recognize us as equal and not as 'less than.' The truth is that we ARE
equal and not 'less than.'
Washington, D.C.: First off, as a former resident of NJ, I applaud
you. I, myself, am adopted and was raised in a straight household but
turned out gay. I was raised by two loving parents who have shown me
unconditional love. I may be the biological product of someone else but I
know who my parents are. Gays and lesbians do not go into parenting
lightly. It is done with the best of intentions and the greatest of love.
Knowing that there are children out there to be adopted, I wish all states
would look at just how "normal" gay parents are and allow gay and lesbian
couples to adopt.
Jon and Michael Galluccio: Thanks. We agree, whole-heartedly. In
fact, Jon is an adoptee himself, so he knows exactly where you're coming
from.
Jacqui Salmon: In fact, Jon, a very compelling aspect of your book
was your search for your own biological mother. How did that come out?
Jon and Michael Galluccio: Through jealousy! That emotion was
probably first because Adam received all sorts of information about his
biological family -- such as medical histories of his birth mother, her
mother, an aunt, etc. The lack of a medical history, for me, had always
been an issue. And becoming Adam's father (my adoptive father died when I
was 10), made it even more important. And so I searched for my biological
mother, and I found her. It's been a difficult process -- emotionally and
psychologically, but beautiful nonetheless -- with my birth mother. But not
so with my birth father. But, the bottom line is, I now have my family
medical history.
Reston, Va.: For the person from Georgia who thinks that children
who have two men as parents will think that women aren't valuable, what
about kids whose parents are both Asian American? Will they think that
other races aren't valuable? Should every child have to be raised by a
couple with 2 different sexes, races, religions, political affiliations,
etc? I don't think so. I think this gay couple has a great attitude, and
as they point out, they aren't raising their kids in a vacuum. If kids are
exposed to all kinds of people and taught to respect them all, it won't be a
problem.
Jon and Michael Galluccio: Thanks! We like you!
Springfield, Va.: I wish I had parents like you guys when I was
growing up. THANKS for having the courage to speak out and be yourselves.
I can only hope that others follow. Do you have any regrets thus far (about
being in the public eye and such)?
Jon and Michael Galluccio: The pressure can get intense sometimes.
But the rewards and gifts that we've received from being a public family
outweigh any of the negatives. Knowing that there may be another teenager
out there who doesn't kill himself because he's gay is enough inspiration to
stay out there for a lonnnnggg time. And we get that feedback a lot.
Washington, D.C.: As a 27-year-old (better late than never!!) woman
who just came out, I want to thank you for your example. I was terrified of
being gay my whole life, and your beautiful family helps to alleviate some
of the stigma that kept me from being who I am for so long. Thank you,
thank you, thank you. Your kids are lucky to have such accepting and loving
parents.
Jon and Michael Galluccio: You're going to make Jon cry....thanks.
Potomac Falls, Md.: I applaud you both! My partner and I have a 2
year old son (she birthed) and I am due with his sister in 6 weeks! We are
both professionals, own a wonderful home in suburbia, and live a very
"normal" life. We do not feel we are actively discriminated against in any
way. Our parents still fear that for us and our children, but we believe
that if we conduct ourselves appropriately, people around us will treat us
(and our children) fairly. More people need to step forward and tell their
stories so that mainstream America realize that we're OK with our
lives...and they should be too!
Regarding the issue of "the other sex," our best friends include
heterosexual males. We don't dislike them, and we engage frequently with
them to ensure our children have positive male influences. I am sure that
Jon and Michael do the same thing!
Jon and Michael Galluccio: We think that's the point we're making.
In this era of American history, with mass communication and the growth of
the Internet and so on, there are more people willing to step forward and
come out and share their story with their churches, their Rotary
Clubs...their world.
But when we speak at colleges around the country, we can still have
hundreds of college students come up and say "I've never seen or talked to
an openly gay couple before." So there is still a way to go.
Hyattsville, Md.: Hi, Jon and Michael. Your story has meant a lot
to my partner and me, and we are planning to have a baby in the near future.
My question is whether you think that NJ is a good state for gay parents and
whether there are any areas of the state that are more gay-friendly than
others.
Jon and Michael Galluccio: Well, we've heard that northern NJ
(where
we live) seems to be more liberal and more supportive! But, also, we know
that throughout the country, there are communities in every state where a
family like ours can find love and support and nurturing.
If you want more information about our family, you can go to our Web
site, galluccio.com. You can also email us from that site, and we post
photos of our family. But if you email us, be patient. We may take a long
time to get back to you, but we do respond to everyone.
Jacqui Salmon: Thanks to the Galluccios and thanks to you out there
for your thoughtful questions, (including the ones that made it clear that
you disapprove of the Galluccios' family life). Once again, you've earned
my admiration for thinking critically and deeply about the disparate lives
of families in our society. Coming up next week is a discussion on
researching your family's geneology online. I've got a great guest who is a
veritable encyclopedia on the topic, so send in your questions early. You
can usually post them several days before the chat.